karla

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Re: My LibrePilot VTOL TiltRotor FixedWing
« Reply #90 on: July 01, 2017, 05:45:05 am »
Guys, I think we are approaching end of the road here.
Please feel welcome to spot if I missed options.

The problem with this design (2 motors with prop down wash partially over the front of the wings) is it cant be stabilized properly in hover mode. In vertical flight it will likely work just lovely. In hover, the lift will only work fine for the part of prop not hitting the wing thus creating a pitch up movement. This up pitch is not canceled out by a prop on the other side of the wing, on the contrary its amplified by the other motor. In the case of a straight wing with motors at CG and at tip of wings, this down wash is canceled out. So when adding throttle the plane will rise up and eventually flip over on its back. Roll and Yaw works just fine though. If fixing the pitch by moving CG a lot forward, then the forward placement will result in strong down pitch in vertical flight. Not a workable option.

1. cut off the tip of the wings
Reducing the length of wings so the props run free will create an even lift over CG, where CG needs to be. This will likely make everything work nice in hover mode. However, the reduced wing area will decrease lift, make the stall speed higher, motors work harder and cause shorter flight time in vertical flight mode. Don't desire that. Maybe I could calculate just how much lift will be lost if cutting out that area, maybe its acceptable...

2. move the motors further out until prop downwash run free of wings.
This can be done by increasing the wing spar length by 120 mm on each side. The wing spar is now 1040 adding 240 would make total length 1280, ~ 25% longer. I think that will still work fine with adjusting yaw, roll settings but will the spar hold or need to increase diameter? How will the spar respond to motors given this increased leverage? How about vibrations?
 
3. add a third or forth motor
Balance pitch in hover could be done adding a third motor and place it at rear using the Mako's stock mounting place for the motor. However, this would need an additional output port on the flight controller. Since all 6 are already used and I cant see how to free up one without losing vital control, this is not an option. To try make it a quad will put even more demand on output ports. It will also need to rethink how to successfully control yaw and roll in both hover and vertical modes.

4. use another airframe with straight wings
The reason I chose current fixed wing was to have the simple Elevon controls that combines Aileron and Elevator into one control and don't use a rudder. Thus in Hover mode yaw is done by tilting rotors opposite directions but in Forward flight tilting is not desired but can be done using the Elevons only, just don't touch the yaw stick.
Elevons cant be used on a straight wing. They will need separated Elevator and Ailerons and maybe a rudder control too. I am unfamiliar with that type and not sure how to set it up to work in both Hover and Vertical flight with Libre.

5. different flight controller (HW)
As far as I understand Librepilot Rhino support at least 12 output ports so just swop the Revo board to another supported board with more than 6 ports. Then do option 3 above (add one more motor).

6. develop a vehicle type switch (SW)?
Today, there is no way to switch the current vehicle type  (Multirotor/FixedWing/Heli/Custom) etc, from one to another dynamically. Maybe this limitation can be done away with?
Something like in the GCS when you import a UAV-file to a board.
Maybe one additional 'uav file' can be stored in Revo memory and with a command it will be 'imported' during flight.
This would create much more options and no need for additional output ports on the boards, they can just be used in different ways.

7. different fc (SW and HW)
Use another fc more tailored to VTOLs.
Yes can do that but outside of this scope. Purpose is to see what can be done with LP.


At the moment I am not sure how to move forward.

With the current design it can't be a V-TOL. It can at best be a Short-TOL fixed wing tilt rotor. Just accepting the pitch upward and forward motion in hover and switch to half way forward when plane is starting to lift off. In half forward there is no down wash over wings anymore. The motors should have enough thrust. I might try this.


Re: My LibrePilot VTOL TiltRotor FixedWing
« Reply #91 on: July 01, 2017, 05:59:43 am »
How about ailerons that you configure as flaps or spoilers during hover?

You might even use the ailerons instead of tilting the motors...

karla

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Re: My LibrePilot VTOL TiltRotor FixedWing
« Reply #92 on: July 01, 2017, 10:53:11 am »
Thanks Cliff.
But I will have to put that in the category of wishful thinking :)
I would be very interested however if you could spend some minutes and share your thoughts on the option 6 below.
Karl

Re: My LibrePilot VTOL TiltRotor FixedWing
« Reply #93 on: July 01, 2017, 06:36:59 pm »
There probably are better ways to do that?  It takes a long time to erase and flash a section of settings memory, and stabilization will fail for a short time with the CPU taken away for so long.  That is why you are not allowed to change any settings while it is armed.

It would be feasible to store both sets in flash and switch on command, like we do with Stabilization Banks right now (code changes of course).

There have been users that wanted a transition from one mode to another, like for rotating the motors from vertical to horizontal and they wanted control throughout the transition.  That seems a more reasonable way to handle it.

It seems there has not been a dev with the model, the time, and the drive to do these.

For today, the easiest way to make a switch from one uav to another would be to run two FCs and have some sort of electronic servo switch to tell your servos to switch from one FC to the other.

Also, you could start bench experiments with removing the safety checks that keep you from changing settings while it is armed and use GCS telemetry to import a uav file in flight.  After importing to RAM (which is very fast), the import doesn't actually write to flash until it asks you (you could cancel that prompt or just ignore it).  I don't think that many places in the flight code actually read the flash settings, they just use the RAM copy of the settings.  I know that AutoTune reads the flash, but you don't need that.

karla

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Re: My LibrePilot VTOL TiltRotor FixedWing
« Reply #94 on: July 02, 2017, 09:26:07 am »
Thanks a lot Cliff.
There are so many options and opportunities here :)
I will consider how to move forward.

This part is particularly encouraging:
Also, you could start bench experiments with removing the safety checks that keep you from changing settings while it is armed and use GCS telemetry to import a uav file in flight.  After importing to RAM (which is very fast), the import doesn't actually write to flash until it asks you (you could cancel that prompt or just ignore it).  I don't think that many places in the flight code actually read the flash settings, they just use the RAM copy of the settings.  I know that AutoTune reads the flash, but you don't need that.

yes, I have experienced that the import to RAM is very fast. Saving to board is slower but not needed for this ends at all.
Considering LibrePilot is open source, this means it will not be a dead-end to pursue further elaborations.


mr_w

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Re: My LibrePilot VTOL TiltRotor FixedWing
« Reply #95 on: July 03, 2017, 11:04:26 am »
Forgive me cause I did not read the entire thread so I am not 100% familiar with your setup, but Revo can do additional outputs on FlexiIO port too, giving few more available servo outs. That all depends on what you already have configured there.

I see however that current next does not support mixing "Output" options with anything but PPM on FlexiIO, but that shouldn't be hard to fix, at least for test.

 

karla

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Re: My LibrePilot VTOL TiltRotor FixedWing
« Reply #96 on: July 04, 2017, 02:50:38 am »
Wait a second, my FlexiIO port is free and not used at the moment.
I checked with the documentation, seems you are right mr_w - I have 6 more servos and motors to play around with (the first six ports are already in use by 2 motors and 4 servos).
Very cool!

FlexiIO
It's primary use is as a receiver port compatible with PWM and PPM receivers, but can also be used to provide up to 6 additional PWM outputs, serial telemetry port, and two GPIO pins.

https://librepilot.atlassian.net/wiki/display/LPDOC/OpenPilot+Revolution

karla

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Re: My LibrePilot VTOL TiltRotor FixedWing
« Reply #97 on: July 04, 2017, 04:05:43 am »
But what is this?

I see however that current next does not support mixing "Output" options with anything but PPM on FlexiIO, but that shouldn't be hard to fix, at least for test.

So for LP Rhino its okay but in next release this will not work.
Must be for a good reason?
This is too early to ask but How to fix that?

mr_w

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Re: My LibrePilot VTOL TiltRotor FixedWing
« Reply #98 on: July 04, 2017, 10:01:53 am »
This only means that you can use FlexiIO pins as either 6 outputs, or as PPM input + 5 Outputs. There is no way (but should be fixable) to use the additional UART there (for whatever reason you might need it) + 4 Outputs. Those restrictions apply to FlexiIO port only, so if you are not using anything else at FlexiIO right now, it should not make any difference either with 16.09 or in current next.


karla

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Re: My LibrePilot VTOL TiltRotor FixedWing
« Reply #99 on: July 04, 2017, 10:25:17 am »
 ;D

karla

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Re: My LibrePilot VTOL TiltRotor FixedWing
« Reply #100 on: July 08, 2017, 12:51:46 pm »
Some progress here.
Had several petty problems like having the motor screws drawn too far and connect with the copper wiring and ruining the motor and having to order new ones and having to redesign the tilt rotors out of clumsiness again  ::)
Anyway, I added a third motor at the rear thanks to the tips here, the additional output ports is provided by configuring the FlexiIO port. So that ESC/Motor is setup as output number 7. No issues at all :)
And it did lift off and hover today in the park :)



However it was short and next time to lift off the Revo board died :(
I do not think it was caused by the 3rd ESC/Motor since i had been running it before inside many times to test it.
No, I think it might have become overheated?
The temp in the park was 33 degrees celsius (in the shadow) but it was in direct sunlight while doing these tests.

Anyway, now it just show the green power light when connected via USB cable to the GCS. The two other LEDs do not light up and it can't be recognized by the GCS as a board at all.
So I count it out as dead?
Not too alarmed about that. I had one functional Revo that I have installed and will try tomorrow again.
But temp is forecasted to be the same over 30 degrees.

Should I better give it a pass?
Could it be other reasons for the Revo to give up?

I am really eager to do more hover tests...

Re: My LibrePilot VTOL TiltRotor FixedWing
« Reply #101 on: July 08, 2017, 04:34:15 pm »
FYI: FC's should really only be powered by 5V even if the spec says more.

Outside temperature of 33C should not be a problem if FC has any ventilation.  I do temperature calibration with the board going up to 70C because I see it get that hot inside it's enclosure in the summer when sitting on hot ground.

Does Windows do anything at all when you plug in the USB?  In Linux (maybe Mac) the lsusb command would show a difference (new line added) when you plug it in.

karla

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Re: My LibrePilot VTOL TiltRotor FixedWing
« Reply #102 on: July 09, 2017, 04:58:58 am »
I checked again the voltage feeding the fc and its 5.0v just like before.
So the reason for the death of the board is likely not heat stroke but something else.
Have a Mac, there was a command used in Terminal to check if there is a change/new line when the USB is inserted, but I forgot it.

karla

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Re: My LibrePilot VTOL TiltRotor FixedWing
« Reply #103 on: July 15, 2017, 12:50:07 pm »
Have ordered a new Revo unit, but meanwhile tried to get a RevoNano unit and a Oplink transceiver unit i have to work.
And interestingly, after struggling and w good help from people here, got all functions from the Revo to work with this little Nano unit:
PPM-in from Oplink aboard RX, PWM output, Volt/Current meter, External mag/compass (no need for a Revo).
Tomorrow, off to park and resume hover tests :)

Re: My LibrePilot VTOL TiltRotor FixedWing
« Reply #104 on: July 16, 2017, 02:16:46 am »
Good to hear that you are back to the flying part of the hobby!