Por Favor, Ayuda con 450 y CC3D Atom
« on: May 24, 2020, 09:24:31 pm »
Good, I present my new project of the heli 450 CopterX V2 with CC3D ATOM, I have flown heli in a traditional way, but I have not gone from stationary without crashing, in simulator many many hours with different translations and movements.

Previously I tried it with a Revo, but it gave me a lot of problems and I gave up, now I have a problem and I do not know if it is a question of configuration, or mechanical adjustment, I expose everything I have used and more or less like:

For assembly and configuration I have followed all the steps of:
https://frickelnundmehr.wordpress.com/startseite/trex-clone-und-cc3d/, including the position of the CC3D on the side of the heli, to avoid the greatest possible variations.

Everything is mechanically adjusted and the transmitter configured and calibrated, heli configuration, cyclic 120, inputs, outputs, flight modes, location and leveling, blade pitch +/- 11,0,11. Everything responds correctly, just like in flight data.

In the stabilization configuration, I do not know where to start, the truth is that I am in a big mess, everything is by default, except for something that I think I more or less understand, I attach an uav file so that you can see it better, but some advance little thing.

- in stabilization / basic / Responsiveness:
   Attitude modified to 85

- in stabilization / Expert / Sensor Tuning:
   Gyro Noise Filtering to 0.010 (As recommended as a start)

I have read almost all the posts about it, but I am not clear, they advise to start with someone's uav file, but I would have to configure all the settings again, and I do not get used to it :'(.
 
Is there a way to see the parameters of the uav without having to save them in the cc3d?

   It has some vibrations altogether, I don't know if it will affect the problem that I expose below.

Well, the problem is the following, as I said before, everything works well, but being with the engine stopped, when I operate the engine, both in atti mode and in rate, in manual mode, the cyclic leans to one side and back, The more motor the more accused.

In flight data, it can be seen as if the heli was moving, but it is totally stopped on a table.

As a detail, the motor test was carried out with all the blades and propellers removed.

To see someone can lend me a hand.

Thank you.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2020, 10:01:27 pm by nestor81 »

Re: Por Favor, Ayuda con 450 y CC3D Atom
« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2020, 09:01:50 am »
Everything responds correctly, just like in flight data.
Be aware that the PFD display there roll should look backwards.  When you move the heli by hand to roll the heli left, the world rolls right.

- in stabilization / basic / Responsiveness:
   Attitude modified to 85
This is the maximum bank angle in Attitude mode.  For first testing, I would use much less than 85 degrees.  Maybe 30 to 45 degrees.

I have read almost all the posts about it, but I am not clear, they advise to start with someone's uav file, but I would have to configure all the settings again, and I do not get used to it :'(.
Yes.  There are people here that fly helis instead of quads.  They have experience.  I am guessing that one will come along and help within a few days.  He might be able to give you advice that allows you to start from your current settings.

Is there a way to see the parameters of the uav without having to save them in the cc3d?
I am not really understanding this...
I think you are wanting to see what is in his uav file without loading it in the CC3D...
The UAV file is a human readable text file, but it is confusing to a novice.  It would be better for you to save your current settings to your own UAV file so you can put it back later, then load the new UAV into the CC3D and look at your interesting pages, make some "screen capture" / "print screen" of important pages...  Then put your own UAV file back into the CC3D.

It has some vibrations altogether, I don't know if it will affect the problem that I expose below.
Vibration is bad.  First of all it makes it wear out more quickly.  Maybe worse is that vibration past a certain amount will make the sensors go crazy and it will at least tilt, and maybe even flip over.  With head and tail rotor blades removed you should be able to run any speed and Flight Data images should not move if heli does not move.  Hopefully, putting blades back on does not make it vibrate worse.

Well, the problem is the following, as I said before, everything works well, but being with the engine stopped, when I operate the engine, both in atti mode and in rate, in manual mode, the cyclic leans to one side and back, The more motor the more accused.
It absolutely should not tilt for any CC3D reason (not even for vibration) just from adding motor power when in Manual mode.  Long shot question:  Are you using a FlySky I6 radio?

Re: Por Favor, Ayuda con 450 y CC3D Atom
« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2020, 11:28:33 am »
First of all, thank you very much for the quick response.

As I wrote earlier, on the flight data screen everything moves correctly,
as you well describe.

I set the altitude at 85 to get greater range of motion for possible
emergency fixes but i will set it to 45 for startup as you advise me.

I had not really thought about that system, I will use it to see the uav data and
modify them, especially for PID data, thanks.

Regarding the vibrations, I will review all the moving physical components,
sprockets and axles especially, it is possible that it is one of the transmission components
to the tail rotor.

Sorry, I correct myself, only the tilt occurs in the atti and rate modes, in manual mode
no oscillation occurs.

The transmitter is Taranis x9d plus, with an external Flysky module, previously had Turnigy 9x, and to take advantage of the receivers ...

Again thank you very much for the quick response.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2020, 10:02:02 pm by nestor81 »

karla

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Re: Por Favor, Ayuda con 450 y CC3D Atom
« Reply #3 on: May 27, 2020, 09:31:06 am »
Welcome here Nestor81!

Seems you come a long way already and are close to get it airborn :)

This Heli, does it still have the flybar or you took it off?

Seems you are using Librepilot version 15.09, no problem but can be upgraded later on to at least 16.09.
( https://librepilot.atlassian.net/wiki/spaces/LPDOC/pages/4128780/Downloads )

I had a quick look at your configuration file, thanks for sharing, it looks okay.
Please do the following adjustments.

For the Stab settings press the red parts to get it back.



For the flight modes settings, change to axislock for all 3 modes.
replace the the Rattitude for Rate mode.



Then you try to lift off in manual mode and report back what is happening
- okay?

p.s.
once you got it nicely configured, then you put the Revo board back in and do some more advanced stuff :)
d.s.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2020, 09:49:30 am by karla »

Re: Por Favor, Ayuda con 450 y CC3D Atom
« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2020, 07:53:28 pm »
Hello Karla,

- The project is with a heli flybarless

- LP version is 16.09, attached screenshot

Just to confirm before anything:

- In Stab settings you advise me to take the parameters marked to default parameters, is it?

- As for Enable pirouette compensation, it is selected by default,
do I have to leave it disabled? What is your function?

As soon as you confirm, more than anything to learn about LP, I make the modifications, flight test and comment.

a greeting

Thank you.

Re: Por Favor, Ayuda con 450 y CC3D Atom
« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2020, 09:00:24 pm »
I just made the modifications in the parameters, but I have not performed a flight test, attached video of the test on a table and the flight data screen in LP


karla

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Re: Por Favor, Ayuda con 450 y CC3D Atom
« Reply #6 on: May 31, 2020, 10:40:41 am »
Sorry for the delay.

Thanks for your answers. Got it.
Yes, in the Stabilisation settings, put all values in default except the 'Enable piruette comp' that should be unchecked.
In the video its show you fly in mode 3: please confirm again that that is set to
Manual, Manual, AxisLock (and Manual on thrust).
Also I think you need to confirm that you did not change the Attitude Estimation Algorithm from Basic.
You find that setting under Configuration - Attitude - Settings.
The way the horizon is starting to get unsettled while you are speeding up the head rotor looks like you have some other settings.

Once this is confirmed you should try to put it on the ground in a free space area and spin up the rotor carefully, being prepared to abort at any time of misbehaviour.

For the first try the goal is just to see if the tail is stable. When that is out of the way we move on...

Let us know what happens

Good luck
« Last Edit: May 31, 2020, 10:54:55 am by karla »

Re: Por Favor, Ayuda con 450 y CC3D Atom
« Reply #7 on: June 01, 2020, 01:23:11 pm »
Hi Karla, do not worry about the delay, although I am looking forward to the answers, I understand that I have to be patient.
I confirm that in the stabilization configuration, there are all the default values, I attach images to be able to see it quickly, although in the end I will also attach the uav file.
As for flight mode 3, I also confirm that Manual / Manual / AxisLock / Manual is configured.

Re: Por Favor, Ayuda con 450 y CC3D Atom
« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2020, 01:32:34 pm »
I have done a test to see the reaction of the tail, as you told me, although I have done it on a rotating base to prevent any accident, attached video link.



I don't know if this will help determine if there is a problem, if not please let me know and I will take the test again.

Thank you

a greeting
« Last Edit: June 01, 2020, 07:40:52 pm by nestor81 »

karla

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Re: Por Favor, Ayuda con 450 y CC3D Atom
« Reply #9 on: June 02, 2020, 02:41:12 am »
Thanks for sharing the video, it helps.

Do you hold the yaw stick still or do you move it around all the time?
Seems the tail do not hold its position more than some moments...
Also the head speed of main rotor seem a bit slow, I think, or maybe you did not throttle up to to where it would like to hover/lift?

To confirm the mechanical throw of the tail servo is in the middle when almost hover, you can try do set the Yaw back to Manual and try again. Then if you need to put the yaw stick to the left or right to hold it straight you should adjust the length of the tail rod. Don't need to be totally perfect.
When that's done. Put Yaw stabilisation back to Axislock and try again and see if it holds straight when coming close to hover and you don't move the yaw stick.

Re: Por Favor, Ayuda con 450 y CC3D Atom
« Reply #10 on: June 02, 2020, 06:23:28 pm »
Hello, to eliminate doubts, I have carried out a new test and recorded on video.

In the video you can see that the tail does not remain stable, and the transmitter sticks are shown, which are not moved.

The gas stick is more or less in the center, at the hover point.

Previously, the tail servo was adjusted mechanically and manual mode, and was almost nailed down.


Re: Por Favor, Ayuda con 450 y CC3D Atom
« Reply #11 on: June 02, 2020, 09:56:47 pm »
That looks like a PID oscillation, although it doesn't seem to be a simple regular back and forth.
If I might give some general PID tuning suggestions.

As you have already done, do one channel at a time with the untuned channels set to manual (or for quads and actually flying where you must have some stabilization you should just use low PID values defaults, reduce them (e.g. cut P in half, cut I in half, cut D in half) till they don't oscillate).  Typically you can use the same PID on both roll and pitch, but even symmetric quads are slightly asymmetric because the battery shape has more rotational inertial in one direction (moving the long way) than the other.

For helis, you should set up for a single, fixed head speed, since e.g. doubling the head speed doubles the control sensitivity and requires reduced PIDs.  Always use this head speed when tuning and flying.  If you must, you can tune at highest head speed and then any lower speed will not oscillate, but it will be somewhat mushier that it could be (maybe not a problem for non-stunt flight).

For helis, tune yaw first.

A caveat: High head speed and too high PID (oscillation) can be bad with some helis?  During initial ground tuning of cyclic, I am guessing that you want to control throttle only, with collective neutral, so you can slam the throttle down quickly to stop an oscillation without causing hard downthrust.  To test fly while tuning cyclic with tuned yaw, maybe even have the collective set to a fixed "hover" value.

For helis with flybar weights, set the weights all the way "in" or remove them completely (basically quickest control).  CC3D settings can slow the controls back down if desired, but this allows CC3D to get it out of a bad situation (e.g. using an auto-leveling mode) as quickly as possible.

On the one channel you are tuning, set I and D to zero and adjust P starting from some low value and going higher and higher till it oscillates.  To get there quickly, double P each time if you are comfortable with what you know about your heli's cyclic oscillations when tuning roll/pitch in particular.  Find where it just starts to oscillate constantly.  Cut that P number in half and save it, then increase the I term till it oscillates and back it off a little from that till it doesn't oscillate.  Test quick stick blips for ringing or oscillation.  Leave D set to zero.  Maybe add some D if it "rings" (a small oscillation on quick stick motion that quickly decreases to zero).

For both quads and helis, if it won't hold pitch in fast forward flight, it needs more I term, at least in pitch (and probably matched in roll).

More precisely, you can use the above or many other "PID tuning" instructions on the internet.  ZN tuning actually uses the oscillation period (1 / frequency) as part of the equations that give you the P, I, and D values.

Ziegler Nichols method
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PID_controller#Ziegler%E2%80%93Nichols_method

karla

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Re: Por Favor, Ayuda con 450 y CC3D Atom
« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2020, 02:13:35 am »
Thank you for clarification and the video - now its pretty easy to get the tail tuned.

For the yaw, just follow what TheOtherCliff is suggesting in the part beginning with
'On the one channel you are tuning...'

The head speed feels okay to start with for now.
You might need to adjust it a bit when you take the Heli out of your very nice test bench.
When you got the tail locked in, I would take it out on the floor and carefully try hover it and observe how it behaves with roll, pitch and throttle. First I would adjust throttle and collective curves so it wants to hover around mid stick. Then I would go in with the Roll axis in the same way you did the yaw.
Its easy :)

Re: Por Favor, Ayuda con 450 y CC3D Atom
« Reply #13 on: June 09, 2020, 07:18:42 pm »
Good guys

Sorry I didn't send any information, but I have been reviewing the ziegler-Nichols method, to learn and understand how PIDs worked, but for now it is somewhat complex for me.

I have tried to apply the second method of ZN, by oscillation, which I think is the one that fits the case of the heli system, but after lots of tests, I don't get anything, I don't know what I'm doing wrong.

I've also tried the indications of TheOtherCliff, but I also can't stabilize the yaw.

I think the problem I have is that the correct oscillations will not be recognized, since they are very varied (I know that ZN says they have to be constant, but I have had constant oscillations with the difference in speed (different critical periods) or at least it is what it seems to me.

Attached video in which I apply 3 different P values ​​so that you can see the oscillations that occur and you can orient me a little. There are times when I intentionally wink to see the stabilizer reaction.
The P values ​​used are:
- up to 35 second, P = 0.00390
- from 35 second to 48 second, P = 0.00703
- from the second 48, P = 0.00843



Greetings

Re: Por Favor, Ayuda con 450 y CC3D Atom
« Reply #14 on: June 10, 2020, 01:37:54 am »
It looks like the main rotor is out of balance.  At about 0:08 you can see the tail going up and down quickly (and main shaft side to side) at a particular RPM where it is the worst.  I would fix that first.  (Edit: Fix if it is not caused by simple blade holder alignment that straightens out at first spool up)

Then to me (no LP heli experience, you want KarlA or a few others for more heli experience), even the lowest setting that you used looked like it oscillated.  I would start from there and reduce P till it goes away, and right there pop the yaw stick to make sure it feels like it has enough control after being dialed down.

The default settings are for quadcopters, which react faster (from what I understand) and can thus use higher PIDs.  That is why helicopters need to dial down the default PIDs.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2020, 06:59:31 am by TheOtherCliff »