[elie]

good day for all.
i just bought a set of cc3d  and i wanna install it on my helicopter with a gps can some one help me.
 i have no access on the librepilot software to click on the heli pictogram. it is an error from my sid eor the software does not accept this configartion0

[hwh]

I'm guessing you're talking about the wizard.  There is no wizard for heli.

You'll have to setup a heli manually without a wizard.  There are quite a few threads about it and hopefully one of the heli users will see your questions and answer.

[daveapplemotors]

Since the heli setup and transmitter wizards aren't too capable get another UAV file and modify it.

Here is something that might help:  https://forum.librepilot.org/index.php?topic=557.0   

[utoedter]

good day for all.
i just bought a set of cc3d  and i wanna install it on my helicopter with a gps can some one help me.
 i have no access on the librepilot software to click on the heli pictogram. it is an error from my sid eor the software does not accept this configartion0

Hey have a look here, its written in german, but a online translater may help:

https://frickelnundmehr.wordpress.com/startseite/trex-clone-und-cc3d

Udo

[rotormonkey]

Hi Librepilot forum and Elie. I'm a brand new member today and this is my first post. I'm tired of googling and you tubing. I'm trying to set up my Gartt 450L DFC with a CC3D EVO, Spectrum DX9, Redcon DSMX2 PWM receiver, Emax ES08MAII swash servos (update rate unknown), ZD S9257 digital tail servo (update rate 333Hz). I'm replying to this post because I'm in the same boat here. I've read all the blogs on this topic and watched all the Youtube vids available and I'm still in the dark as to how to actually pull it off (CC3D-Librepilot-heli) setup.
Some questions:
What vehicle do I initially choose in the GSC to start changing the CC3D settings to fit the traditional heli?
Where do I get the UAV file with the basic configuration?
And Thank you in advance Daveapplemotors for the information you have already posted on the topic.

trying to fill in the gaps here. Any specific links or guidance is greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance, Rotormonkey.

[ChrisOlson]

I just set up and flew a flybar heli the first with LP and it took me about a day to figure it out. The wizards, as mentioned, don't work for trad heli. You can download one of the .uav files that you'll find in one of the above posts and use that as a starting point. It's kind of like the param files for ArduPilot, except the .uav file is a tag type format.

That's the starting point to get your controller initially set up for heli. And then you have to modify it to fit your helicopter.

[skytalon74]

hello.  awesome on the successful flight with flybar.   willing to share your .uav file?

[ChrisOlson]

Unfortunately, I switched to flying that heli with ArduPilot instead. So don't have the .uav file for it at present but I may have saved a template in my linux laptop. The problem I eventually ran into with LibrePilot with a flybar is that the rate controller has no feedforward (at least not that I could find). A flybar is a mechanical rate controller, so it doesn't need an electronic one. And therein lies the problem - I have to make some mods to the code to fly the heli in autonomous flight with a flybar because I can't use the rate PID loop (inner loop).

FBL is a huge marketing rage, and I don't really know why everybody focuses on it. A flybar helicopter is much more stable than any FBL at all flight speeds for UAV helicopters. I've been flying auto missions with ArduPilot with my 700 piston engine flybar at 30 m/s flight speeds, flown it at close to 45m/s in Acro, and it is so stable that it does not require a gimbal for the camera.

As time permits I may look at the code for LibrePilot and see if I can add a rate feedforward to it, along with a method to freeze the rate integrator for manual flight, but use it in autonomous flight. Even though the focus in LibrePilot is FBL and such mods would likely never be accepted for stable release, I could still use it for myself because I like the Revo hardware.

[TheOtherCliff]

Some ?educated? guesses. 

Given that any control has a lag, a flybar system just has more lag so it must be tuned a lot lower.

I would minimize or remove the flybar weights.  Then it is just a matter of detuning Rate mode PIDs and make it slow enough to respond so it doesn't oscillate.  You should be able to get it working but a little slower / smoother than manual flight.  Then build Attitude mode on top of that.

[ChrisOlson]

I was running the lightest slotted CF paddles I could find. And the flybar really doesn't have "lag" so to speak. What it has is a lot of damping of the rate, which can make a flybar feel "laggy". But I can tune a flybar to be just as responsive as a FBL, and if you want to do extreme 3D flight with the flybar it is no problem at all with a "hot" setup.

No matter how light you run the flybar weight, it is still a rate controller. And you can't have two rate controllers working against each other. The answer to this in an autopilot is to be able to use feedforward and just bypass the rate loop. Without the feedforward you can't get enough servo travel if you turn the rate controller off in an electronic unit. And that is one thing that ArduPilot has that LibrePilot doesn't for helicopers.

The LibrePilot code is targeted to multi's, which cannot fly without a rate controller, and it just happens to work with FBL helicopters (with some other changes). I think it wouldn't be too hard to add this to LibrePilot. And I think it would be worthwhile to look into it and spend the time on it, being in commercial applications for successful UAV heli's they are all flybar, such as the Yahama Rmax and Fazer. The FBL rage is basically only for the 3D people, and has no real place in UAV heli's where utmost stability is required. Depspite all the FBL units, and even including LibrePilot with virtualbar, trying to mimic a flybar heli, none have succeeded in making one fly with the supreme stability of a flybar helicopter. Art Young's invention flew on every Bell helicopter from the 47 to the venerable UH-1 "Huey" for over 50 years. And despite modern electronics, is still used today in commercial helicopers where stability problems are not an option.

So as time permits, I intend to download and look over the code to see what can be done with it. All that is required is to have both the FC or pilot inputs to the attitude controller pass direct thru and let the flybar do its job so it can work in the autonomous flight mode. I did get the heli to fly but it was certainly not acceptable for high speed flight, nor for autonomous flight in any amount of wind after I flew and tested it a bit.

[TheOtherCliff]

I may be wrong, but I believe you can if the FC PIDs are detuned to the point that they are slower than the flybar.  Imagine the extreme case of the FC being detuned to the point that it was very slow...

I also wonder if the flybar could be used as rate, so the inner loop could be set up as manual, with the outer loop controlling attitude.

[ChrisOlson]

Yes, that is what is needed is the inner PID loop (rate) to be manual, or straight thru, and all we need is the attitude controller. Then a flybar would work beautiful. So if we have an error in atttidude the attitude controller simply sends the signal to the servo mixer to correct it, there is no rate damping at all, and the flybar provides the damping, rate control, and stabilization for the heli. There may be a combination of settings to accomplish that with no mods to the code? But I couldn't stumble upon it if there is. If I turn down the rate controller to prevent it from trying to do the flybar's job, I lost servo travel and response for autonomous flight.

So it's kind of a catch 22 - the rate (inner loop) needs to be very fast and just feed a signal straight thru to the attitude controller. But if it is tuned to be fast enough to get the response, then the heli oscillates badly because the rate controller is damping one way while the flybar is damping another and the two are not in unison.

If there is a way to make the inner loop manual, I could use a tutorial on how to do that and give it another shot with the stock code.

Or another way to "fix" it would be to put a low pass filter on the rate controller. I don't know what the default refresh rate of the inner PID loop is, but I would guess around 20Hz. If I slow that PID loop to 1 or 2 Hz, then I might be able to use normal proportional gain in the rate controller, and just limit it's input to the attitude controller to 1 or 2 times per second.

[TheOtherCliff]

I would get it hovering with Manual (stick directly controls swash plate) first to prove that things are set up correctly.  You may have to "disable sanity checks" System->Settings->FlightModeSettings->DisableSanityChecks

I don't know it if will work, but then try to find a Rate mode that is slow enough that it doesn't oscillate.  Just keep cutting all the Rate PID numbers in half, over and over, till it stops oscillating.  That should get you in the ballpark.  Then use those Rate PIDs when setting up Attitude mode and decrease Attitude PIDs till it doesn't oscillate.

If you have a hard time getting Attitude to stop oscillating, cut Rate in half again.

Just some semi-educated guesses...

[jmrobert48]

I know its been awhile, but has any progress been made?