LibrePilot Forum
Users => Vehicles - MultiRotors => Topic started by: liftbag on December 30, 2015, 10:41:14 pm
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As many of you know, RS2K have added AlwaysStabilizeWhenArmed in betaflight naming it Airmode. He already added this feature in OP 15.05.
AlwaysStabilizeWhenArmed is self-explanatory, the control loop is always active, even with throttle below zero and motors in idle.
You can enable the feature by setting "True" System > Settings > FlightModeSettings > AlwaysStabilizeWhenArmed.
This is useful to maintain the multicopter control on all occasions that require zero throttle, such as a quick altitude loss to center the gate, or when you stop a flip in the inverted position for a long time.
AlwaysStabilizeWhenArmed works perfectly, but needs a safety feature that will be available in the next release, and early in the next beta.
Everyone using a combination of stick to arm/disarm the motors cannot use AlwaysStabilizeWhenArmed, because arming/disarming is understood as a command, and may overturn multicopter on the ground.
Currently only those using a switch on an accessory channel to arm/disarm can safely use AlwaysStabilizeWhenArmed.
In the next release AlwaysStabilizeWhenArmed will be activated from the gui (Output tab).
In addition, those who use the stick combination to arm/disarm, can disable AlwaysStabilizeWhenArmed in Flight mode switch position (input tab) so to have a fligh mode safe for takeoff and landing.
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I may be misunderstanding how this feature works (doing a ground test), but should the motors respond to angle changes when throttle is zero when armed?
Currently, they do not with ''AlwaysStabilizeWhenArmed'' set to ''True.''
With ''motors spin at neutral output when armed and throttle below zero'' enabled, there are also no changes to RPM when changing the quad angle.
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I may be misunderstanding how this feature works (doing a ground test), but should the motors respond to angle changes when throttle is zero when armed?
Yes, and that pretty dangerous currently.
Output tab: Motors spin at neutral checked
UAVO Browser: ''AlwaysStabilizeWhenArmed'' set to ''True.''
Just after board is armed, motors spin and are reactive while the Throttle is 0.
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Both options have been set to true, but the motors are not reactive at 0 throttle. They remain idle (ESC calibration 1030).
They become reactive only after slightly increasing throttle/same behaviour as default.
What could be causing this?
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Motors currently spin just after armed ?
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yes, but they don't react to angle changes.
Edit: is this acro + only? I have been flying rate so far.
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Strange...
I have currently my quad setup like that and it works perfectly.
The "AlwaysStabilizeWhenArmed" is really saved using the (https://librepilot.atlassian.net/wiki/download/attachments/7733253/Upload_button.png) button ?
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Same here, it works flawless.
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is this acro + only? I have been flying rate so far.
There is no limitation with stabilization modes.
Please post your config file: File > Export UAV settings...
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Here you go.
I updated the attachment, since I saved it whilst having motor spin at neutral disabled.
These are the settings I use to test AlwaysStabilizeWhenArmed.
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This feature is only enabled for Multirotor frame and your frame is currently Custom
You are using a custom mixer, why ? For accessory ?
Please check this page for how to setup and accessory without a custom mixer:
https://librepilot.atlassian.net/wiki/display/LPDOC/Adding+a+buzzer+to+Multirotor+frame
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Ah, so that is the reason.
I have a PWM lost model beeper hooked up to a motor output and I am essentially using channel 6 of my Tx to output the throttle signal as a PWM signal through the Revo Nano to tell ensure that the beeper receives an alternating input.
Is it possible to output PWM without a custom mixer?
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Is it possible to output PWM without a custom mixer?
Sure..
https://librepilot.atlassian.net/wiki/display/LPDOC/Adding+a+buzzer+to+Multirotor+frame
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All working, thanks :D
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Hi!
Tried this, and it´s very good for Rate or Acro+ but quite dangerous with Attitude if you don´t land on a level terrain (fliped several times). I suspect i know the answer but, is there a way to disable AlwaysStabilizeWhenArmed when using Attitude ?
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I had the same problem. I switch arm so I just went around it and disarmed as close to the ground as possible.
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Hi!
Tried this, and it´s very good for Rate or Acro+ but quite dangerous with Attitude if you don´t land on a level terrain (fliped several times). I suspect i know the answer but, is there a way to disable AlwaysStabilizeWhenArmed when using Attitude ?
In the current next (and in the next release) you use an accessory channel to enable/disable AlwaysStabilizeWhenArmed, so to have safe landing and take-off.
(http://imageshack.com/a/img922/6118/DtnNJa.png)
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Just red this topic and what a cool feature!
Would solve a lot of my fall out of sky problems as even on rate mode when I flipped in air and accidentally lowered the throttle to far the quad had difficulties "regaining" power and giving odd behaviour.
This would be my setup:
I have a servo on output channel 5 for my auto fpv cam tilt function not linked to an input channel
Channel 5 input is for flight mode, channel 6 would be for activating the Always stabilize feature on accessory 1
Would this setup work of would there be a conflict?
Would this also mean once activated and I would land with the quad not perfectly level, one or more motors will continue spinning? Same with takeoff after arming?
So I would actually need a 7channel RX and TX because right now I have the arming setting to yaw right at zero throttle. Putting it on a switch I need and extra channel...?
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About the problem "regaining power" after a drop, this sounds like the "Vortex Ring State" and is not a problem the flightcontroller can solve.
Here is a video about this problem:
https://youtu.be/LCret4rv0HE?t=2m20s
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You either need to have motors spin while armed. Or.... Setup an idle switch in your radio. That way the lowest throttle will idle the motors.
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You either need to have motors spin while armed. Or.... Setup an idle switch in your radio. That way the lowest throttle will idle the motors.
Thanks, hence the topic i guess.
Right now the arming by switch does only work to activate the motors not to disarm. When I click the switch back, the motors are still live and ready to take off.
So I'm looking for a way to put both options on the same switch, one to arm and activate the alwaysstabilize function and switch back to deactivate both options ( landing ).
Possible?
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Right now the arming by switch does only work to activate the motors not to disarm.
Set neutral around middle value on Accessory used for arming.
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Yeah like he said it's all in the neutral point. On my Taranis I use a 3pos switch. I had to make the neutral point of the switch one micro second above the disarm value. And the off position is disarmed. One switch up (middle) is arm. And the 3rd is still armed with an idle around 1050-1060. I was having problems arming and disarming too so I moved the neutral point one above the disarm value. Works flawless. "Zero throttle yaw spins all day".
All the way down is disarm. Middle is arm and up is still armed only with an idle
That way the motors won't stop unless it's in the middle position and throttle all the way down.
I think the value was 172 in its lowest position. I set neutral value to 173 to reliably arm and disarm.
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Yeah like he said it's all in the neutral point. On my Taranis I use a 3pos switch. I had to make the neutral point of the switch one micro second above the disarm value. And the off position is disarmed. One switch up (middle) is arm. And the 3rd is still armed with an idle around 1050-1050. I was having problems arming and disarming too so I moved the neutral point one above the disarm value. Works flawless. "Zero throttle yaw spins all day".
All the way down is disarm. Middle is arm and up is still armed only with an idle
That way the motors won't stop unless it's in the middle position and throttle all the way down.
I think the value was 172 in its lowest position. I set neutral value to 173 to reliably arm and disarm.
That's my issue! Thanks for the tips. If I read this correctly unless you activated the always stabilize function you can have also total control as long as the motors turn at idle with throttle to zero. Of course it is t the same as total motor stop but I wonder in flight if one of you guys tried both option, which to prefer or doesn't make a difference in flight attitude.
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I used to run it with motors spin when armed and no idle. But if you crash it takes a second to disarm. But always stabilized works fine. Now, like it on a 3 position cause I can still stop the motors for safety in the second position and land easily.
If you crash, throttle down and switch all the way down. Easy and motors stop instantly.
I feel like I have a more control at an idle speed as opposed to just stabilized while armed and motors spin at armed. So I do both. Always stabilized while armed but not motor spin at arm. I do that with an idle on the throttle channel in the radio instead because I like to have an armed and motors not turning and and armed and idle.
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I used to run it with motors spin when armed and no idle. But if you crash it takes a second to disarm. But always stabilized works fine. Now, like it on a 3 position cause I can still stop the motors for safety in the second position and land easily.
If you crash, throttle down and switch all the way down. Easy and motors stop instantly.
I feel like I have a more control at an idle speed as opposed to just stabilized while armed and motors spin at armed. So I do both. Always stabilized while armed but not motor spin at arm. I do that with an idle on the throttle channel in the radio instead because I like to have an armed and motors not turning and and armed and idle.
Had to read that one three times :D but it's clear for me. Once it will be updated in GCS Librepilot I will presumably use the same configuration as yours.
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But if you crash it takes a second to disarm.
This is default. You can change that timing: System>Settings>FlightModeSettings>DisarmingSequenceTime ;)
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Oh, well thank you. That's good to know. Well I may try that this weekend.
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Ok...its initialy set at 1000 ms. Is that Mili seconds? I set it to 10 ms. And that's basically instant to me. Is a small value better than say zero? Would zero make it instant? And the topper... Would the addition of an idle up, "in theory" give "more" control at low throttle?
More RPM means more control, right?
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Ok...its initialy set at 1000 ms. Is that Mili seconds? I set it to 10 ms. And that's basically instant to me. Is a small value better than say zero? Would zero make it instant? And the topper... Would the addition of an idle up, "in theory" give "more" control at low throttle?
More RPM means more control, right?
Yes milli seconds. I would not try to set zero, 10 mS is already instant enough.
About higher idle, is something I've ever set, also without AlwaysStabilizeWhenArmed. The downsides are lower descent rate in normal flight and faster descent rate in upside position. But there is no risk of unwanted motors shutdown in critical conditions, and I think the attitude control at min throttle can be better with airmode enabled.
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I've flown next LibrePilot today with AlwaysStabilizeWhenArmed and it was awesome! Amazing work! :)
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New Dterm calc feel better also ;)
https://bitbucket.org/librepilot/librepilot/pull-requests/218/lp-276-support-d-term-calculation-on/diff
You may be able to raise PID values now.
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@f5soh
Does new d-term calculation mean that easytune no longer produces reliable d values?
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No issue, the flight result is more "reliable" than previously.
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I've flown next LibrePilot today with AlwaysStabilizeWhenArmed and it was awesome! Amazing work! :)
How do you mean "Next" Librepilot? Is there a new Librepilot release or is 15.09 the latest? I'm really waiting for the release to use this function.
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How do you mean "Next" Librepilot? Is there a new Librepilot release or is 15.09 the latest? I'm really waiting for the release to use this function.
By "next" I mean the next branch from bitbucket (https://bitbucket.org/librepilot/librepilot). There's no official build, but you can compile it yourself. I actually think it might not be a bad idea to have a build system of sorts that allows people to try 'next'. Not sure if devs agree. I could look into that.
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I'm not sure where you're trying to download from, the openpilot.org site went away months ago. The project itself died last November. If you have some reason you don't want to upgrade to LibrePilot you can download the last OP version that supported cc3d, 15.02.02. Archive.org has it archived.
Most people just upgrade to LibrePilot to get the bug fixes and improvements made.
The wiki is at https://librepilot.atlassian.net/wiki/display/LPDOC/User+Manual and you can download 15.09 release from there.
edit: the post this was answering seems to have been deleted. I'll leave it as general info.
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I am running Libre 15.09. However in my output tab there is no selection box regarding AlwaysStabilizeWhenArmed as I see in the pictures on this thread. Did I miss something? I went to the system tab and changed AlwaysStabilizeWhenArmed to "TRUE" and still no selection box. I want to select which flight modes utilize the feature as I have read of the mishaps when this precaution is not taken.
Does anyone know where to find this check box?
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That's not in 15.09, that feature was added in the development next branch. Almost every post in this thread mentions that. It will be in the next release or you can build and run the next branch. There are threads telling how to setup up a development system and compile it. There's more info also in the wiki https://librepilot.atlassian.net/wiki/display/LPDOC/Developer+Manual
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Haha I love the internet, classic snarky Uber Geek reply to my question.
But in my mind most uber geeks are far younger then hwh looks.
Anyway Ill use beta flight until the new libre pilot version is released, thanks for the response.
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...But in my mind most uber geeks are far younger then hwh looks...
Actually back in the 1960s we were the prototype for the current geeks and hackers :) We were the ones with pocket protectors and slide rules (remember them?).
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You can just read the first post in this thread and use AlwaysStabilized with 15.09
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I have a question regarding TPA and AlwaysStabilized. So I have my copter tuned pretty well I believe. It's behavior is "spot on" most of the time. Set up TPA on PD only. It gets rid of my oscillation on punch outs and all that but when I invert(hang time) and float, I get a wandering yaw. Not uncontrollable. I have complete control, but it's like a "too low of I gain" type of yaw drift. But I'm upside down. I have not tried to have TPA on PID just on PD. I've started using an idle up switch to see if that helps. And although I have more control, it's still yaw drifts while upside down. Not the case right side up. I thought about upping my motors spin at armed speed but I figured an idle is the same thing. Should I use tpa across all three PID? It does seem to make sense that With it setup with no I scaling this might happen. That's what I'll try next tomorrow. It is set to work across all three axis. And I don't get it on roll or pitch at all just yaw while inverted.
Side note: I have read and re-read this thread many times and although I get the concern for safety with this setting... I don't really see a safety issue at all while switch arming. I either have wonderful luck or have this figured out. I run a switch arm.
Motors idle at armed. Set for 10ms. (Default is 1000). And always stabilized on. Also a three POS switch tied to the throttle channel for an idle up. 1st Position nothing, just for arming. Second and third Position, 2 idle speeds. Now, it will not arm unless the idle is set to POsitin 1 and stick all the way down. So it's kind of like a throttle cut I can arm in idle 2 or three but nothing happens until I go to position one. That's how it's supposed to work, correct? But on disarming...it makes no difference what combination of switches or sticks are at. It will disarms the motors in 10ms with the flick of a switch, every time without fail.
Basically what I'm saying is I believe this mode is totally safe, setup properly. I do get a slight bounce on landing but that's easily solved with a disarm or just careful piloting and a smooth and precise touchdown.
One more thing. After learning how to setup an acro/race copter and wondering if I was missing something not running an F3 board and beta flight. I have to say my cc3d and LP combo is at the same level of tune and performance or beyond alot of the naze/clean/beta flight combos I see on YouTube. I first heard of all these ppl online dogging in the CC3D and wonder if I had made a mistake sticking with it. Well After tuning two acro copters, I can say with confidence, I am very happy with the results. You guys (devs,coders,testers) do a great job. Keep it up!
One last question. Any discussion on adding a "super expo" type feature? Or making a larger expo graph and settings feature like the throttle curve for more fine adjustments? Could be cool to try different expo rates...
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Yeah , +1 for happy with cc3d and LP .
Who needs naze.
Now then a throttle curve with a few more fixed points might be nice !
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Yup, that would be cool too. Like a 7 point curve or something
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So adding TPA on the I term as well as PD was the ticket it seems. Much much more stable inverted
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Hello Forum,
I have just had a read through this thread as I am interested in implementing ASWA.
I followed the instructions that I found here and believe I am close with to dialing in my settings. However I have an issue.
I am running a 6 channel system (FlySky) so I am able to have two auxiliary inputs.
Until now, I used the two extra inputs for "arm" and "flight mode"
For both I was using toggle switches with two positions.
For my flight modes I had, "angle" and "stabilize" modes set.
For arm, I believed I had "arm" and "disarm" set.
I tried today to follow the instructions here to set ASWA and *MSANOWAATBZ to true and checked.
It all seemed great, and when I armed my MR the motors began to idle as expected.
However, when I flipped the "arm" switch back, with throttle at 0, the motors did not stop idling.
I unplugged the battery at this point as I did not want to do anything unsafe. Though I'm excited to fly with this new mode.
I am wondering if someone can help me with my problem. Is there a setting I am missing regarding the "arm" switch that will allow me to disarm my MR.
Ideally, I would like to have my flight modes control the on/off of the ASWA function as well as idling, however, it seems this will be coming with the next update.
For now I would simply like to be able to arm the MR then just disarm when I am very close to my landing pad.
MY DISARM SWITCH DOES NOT STOP MOTORS FROM IDILING?
Thanks in advance for any help with this, and thank you to the developers of this wonderful platform.
* MSANOWAATBZ - ''motors spin at neutral output when armed and throttle below zero''
-haha sorry, this is the longest acronym I've ever typed, maybe a bit excessive.
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Be sure the neutral value is set to middle range on Accessory used as arming switch.
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when I invert(hang time) and float, I get a wandering yaw. Not uncontrollable. I have complete control, but it's like a "too low of I gain" type of yaw drift.
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Most people have soft yaw PIDs. I would increase yaw PIDs. I would also consider using AxisLock instead of Rate on yaw. You can tweak up AxisLock to hold harder if desired.
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Thanks F5soh, that was the issue. Now my arm switch works great. I like the new mode, makes things more reliable and fun.
Still need to play with PIDs though as the flips either happen very slowly, or on higher PID modes I have set, flips/rolls happen faster (still not as fast as I've seen in youtube videos of others) but there is lots of wobble after I stop putting in commands. Going to need a field day with the laptop to really dial it in.
Thanks F5soh for the help :)
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Very helpful thread, thank you all for sharing. As of today, there still is no next release for LibrePilot available (without compiling it yourself, which I haven't tried), so this is still very actual for LibrePilot users. The screenshots on the LibrePilot Jira ASWA Settings (https://librepilot.atlassian.net/wiki/display/LPDOC/Always+Stabilized+When+Armed+mode+setup) seem to come from the still to be released update, so if you're in the same boat as I am using the LP 15.09 version, stop looking for that option to set an accessory switch for ASWA, wait for the next version and set it up like described in this thread.
I checked MotorSpinningWhenIdle under the Output tab in LP 15.09 and set ASWA to True (Settings>FlightController>ASWA>TRUE).
I am confident this will solve my problem: before now I have had issues with losing control temporary when killing the throttle when doing maneuvers in rate mode. So I was looking for the airmode (cleanflight) alternative for LibrePilot. I have yet to test in flight, but I notice the motors are responding to Pitch and Roll inputs when the quad is on the ground with motors spinning when armed.
P.S. Everybody knows this, but to be sure: Only do this when you use a physical switch to arm your quad (I use a 2-pos switch > Accessory0), for using yaw-right may cause you to disarm your quad in mid flight when flying Rate/Acro+ mode. I can also imagine it would be safe to check your Gyro calibration before flying, to make sure the craft thinks it is leveled before you arm when in Attitude mode. (Otherwise it may try to correct as soon as you arm, possibly resulting in a flip.)
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Great read, just set it up on my 400 with a REVO in it.
Try tomorrow see how it compares to Cleanflights.
Also have the GPSV9 on it and will tune the RTH etc.
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This is a really nice feature but I have a question.
Just started out in the quad world with my ZMR to learn how to fly with something cheap. I think I´ve gotten it to fly pretty good so I thought I´d try out this ASWA thing.
Problem is, if I switch flightmodes with the quad armed, it seems like it takes a second or so to "boot up" the new flightmode, cutting the motors in the meantime. I plug everything in, arm the quad, it starts up idling and everything is working, the motors respond to stick movements even with throttle at zero. Then I try to switch flightmodes from attitude to rate for example but when I do, the motors stop spinning for a second.
Haven´t tried it in the air yet fortunately, but I really would like this problem to go away since I´m not really good enough yet to always fly rate. I need my leveling for takeoff and landing at least :P
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Yeah that should not do that. It should be seamless switching between all flight modes. The motors should never stop.
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Yes I figured that too.
Seems to be intermittent as well because it doesn´t always happen which makes it even harder to troubleshoot.
Also, it messed up my failsafe (don´t have a failsafe on the TX) so now when signal loss happens the motors go to idle and I want the FC to cut throttle. I clearly need more tinkering with this one before I actually take it out flying with ASWA enabled.
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Hi,
Please post your config file:
File > Export UAV Settings
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When selecting "Motor Spin at neutral..." I cannot see the option to select the accessory that I can assign to trigger this action.
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You should use the rel-16.09-RC1
https://forum.librepilot.org/index.php?topic=2266.0
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Hi,
Got the same problem when switching flightmodes, sometimes all motors stop for a second. It happens just after activating "zero integral when throttle is low". But dont know if thats the problem. Also not tried to activate aswa...
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So now tried every combination aswa on/off, zero integral on/off but still happens when i switch flight mode (altitude hold to manual thrust or attitude mode to position hold and back) copter is falling from the sky and needs about 2 seconds for restabilize itself. But then it holds position well. Any ideas?